i said:

liberal capitalist institutions encourage people to act hobbesian. it would be better if we set up institutions that encouraged people to be virtuous and civic-minded.

but then tim said:

"setting up institutions," of whatever sort, assumes that people won't ever choose to be virtuous on their own. instead of making people hobbesian, it assumes they actually, fundamentally are hobbesian. instead we should respect people's capability for virtue by convincing them through conversation rather than coercing them through institutional structures.

i thought about it for a while. then i said:

let's respect empirical fact by thinking of people as fundamentally social rather than fundamentally individual. if we do that, institutions are natural, necessary and educative, and choosing the right institutions becomes more important than minimizing, at all costs, the incidence of institutional coercion.

what do you say?